ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Echoing Markos's assessment on Jerome abusrd concultion that and Obama victory will rip the democratic party apart I've cut and pasted a recent post from Booman, the link is as follows
http://www.boomantribune.com/story/2008/ 3/24/143656/211

You have to actually try to be this stupid.

   I don't get all this talk about how the Democrats cannot afford to not choose Obama, because of fear of alienating the African-American vote. It's not like we don't have an opposite reaction if Democrats don't choose Clinton, among segments of Latinos, perhaps part of the Jewish and Catholic vote, certain women and working-class Democrats... That ship has already sailed.

Clinton and Obama are not in an equal position. If the convention in Denver picks the nominee that has won the most states, the most votes, and the most pledged delegates, there will be precious little for the other candidate (and their supporters) to complain about. Not so, if the reverse happens.

In any tough fought primary campaign the loser and their supporters are disappointed, sometimes bitterly so. If they feel like their loss was due to dirty tactics and dishonest attacks, the bitterness can be long-lasting and even carry into the general election. But as long as the loss is seen as legitimate (e.g., the votes were counted honestly) the fallout from a contested primary is usually non-fatal to the eventual nominee. There are, of course, exceptions.

Provided that Obama receives the nomination after winning the pledged delegate count, there is no reason for 'Latinos, perhaps part of the Jewish and Catholic vote, certain women and working-class Democrats' to lose confidence in the process. Their preferred candidate simply lost. It happens.

But if Obama wins the pledged delegate count and still does not gain the nomination, his supporters (most especially but certainly not limited to African-Americans) will be deeply, deeply disillusioned with the process. Even if Clinton were to catch up in the popular vote (a near pipe-dream, but nonetheless) it would offer some measure of mitigation, but not nearly enough to avoid a gross sense of injustice.

If Jerome Armstrong cannot anticipate the rift such an outcome would create in the Democratic Party, then he isn't qualified to opine on American politics. African-American turnout in the general election will be severely depressed, and the damage will be lasting.

Black turnout is absolutely critical to any Democratic statewide run for office in states like Missouri, Ohio, Michigan, and Pennsylvania. Latino turnout can be critical in some states, too, but Armstrong has no argument for why Latino turnout would be severely depressed by a legitimate Obama nomination.

Obama may have a different base than Clinton, but if we are going to do an honest analysis, we have to ask which constituencies are going to stay-home or vote for McCain because Obama won the nomination (in their eyes) illegitimately. The answer is, of course, none. Obama has the conventional and legitimate claim to the nomination. Clinton's claim is based on non-traditional and non-conventional arguments. Her claim is an electability argument, which can wax and wane depending on the day.

Are there some Jewish, Catholic, white working class, and female voters that will vote for Clinton and not for Obama? Certainly. Of course, the opposite is also true. But the operative question is why will they or won't they vote for Obama? If it is not because of the perceived illegitimacy of his nomination then it isn't really relevant, is it?

So, why won't blacks vote for Clinton if she is the nominee? For starters, it is because she will have won unconventionally, and on the argument that Barack Obama is unelectable. Why is he unelectable? Well, currently the Clinton campaign is saying he is unelectable because he has connections to an urban black church and a controversial pastor. That is an argument that, whatever its objective merits, is a straight rebuke of the legitimacy of African-Americans as Americans. To win, Clinton will have had to convince the overwhelmingly white superdelegates that Obama's connections to the black community render him unacceptable to the broader general electorate. They cannot win any other way.

Is there any sense in which Obama's nomination is dependent on convincing the electorate that Clinton's gender renders her unelectable? No. First of all, Obama has already secured the nomination in the traditional sense, and he doesn't need to make extracurricular arguments about electability. But, secondly, his campaign has always (until recently) argued that Clinton is fully qualified to be president and has never to my knowledge raised her gender as a negative in this campaign (either overtly, or covertly).

There are going to be some women that think Clinton was treated unfairly in this process because of her gender, but very few of them will be able to harbor the kind of lingering resentment toward the Obama campaign that would preclude them from supporting him in the fall.

At this point in the process, the legitimacy of Obama's nomination is so established by The Math that the Democratic Party has almost no choice but to nominate him. To fail to do so would destroy the electoral viability of the party not only in the presidential race but in statewide downticket races all across the country.

If Jerome Armstrong doesn't get that, it's really rather pathetic.



Display:


Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

What was the point of this diary? To simply bash one of the people who provides the very forum you are on because he disagrees with you?


by americanincanada on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:55:04 PM EST

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (2.00 / 1)

So according to were not allowed to call Jerome out on his stupidity because he runs the site?


by anujtron on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:57:29 PM EST

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

Impressive, you have the ability to copy and paste!  You are a very, very smart person.
Jerome is not stupid and neither is Markos.  I disagree with much of what Markos states lately, but he is not stupid.  So, disagree with Jerome, fine, but lay off the 'stupid' comments.
by oaktownchicken on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:25:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

YOU didn't call anyone out. You copied over someone else doing it. Not impressive...childish.


by americanincanada on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:42:46 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Zing, my ass... (2.00 / 1)

Minor detail: last I checked Obama doesn't have enough votes or enough pledged delegates for the nomination. And, he's by no means assured a victory in the popular vote, as far as the party's concerned this primary season, either.

Does anything else really need to be said amidst all this incessant bloviating?


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:58:17 PM EST

Re: Zing, my ass... (2.00 / 0)

Did you even bother to read the article?


by anujtron on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:59:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Uh, yeah! (none / 0)

This is opinion on top of opinion on top of opinion. With plennnnnty of "opinion purported (falsely) as fact."

This is quintessential, partisan bloviating. Nothing more. To project otherwise is just more of the same.


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:12:02 PM EST
[ Parent ]

dude, read the article first (none / 0)


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:09:40 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Reality? It's more than a concept! (none / 0)

Read the recent St. Petersburg Times poll regarding Dem voter sentiments in Florida.

77% of voters want their original votes counted in the Party.

Harshest reality of all for BHO supporters: Poll after poll CLEARLY demonstrates that equal or greater amounts of Clinton supporters will vote GOP or not vote, at all.

Bottom line: reality dictates neither candidate wins in the GE without true, sincere, parity for both sides' supporters.

Anything favoring one of the candidate's supporters over the other spells monumental problems for this party come November.

The concept that one candidate's supporters will become more disaffected than the other's is pure, unadulterated bullshit. More importantly, all polling data bears this out, too!

The Democratic Party is in a very, very, very difficult situation, across-the-board.

Frankly, at this point, based upon sheer quantitative REALITY, I don't see there being any other choice than to a compromise candidate.

IMHO, the damage is done. And, it's on both sides, without question. To purport that more damage has been done on one side of the table than the other is just equivocating bullshit.


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:24:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

If the elected delegates from FL and MI are seated as elected. And allowed to vote. Or there are rerun elections in these states. Then the vote is legitimate. If the above two options do not come into effect: then the nomination is stolen. Not legitimate.

If FL and MI are split 50/50, then there is vote stealing.

The argument goes both ways.

Also, legitimacy is not the issue for Asians and Lations. Our problem is that many of them can vote for McCain. ROOLZ is not an effective argument for lots of us.


by DaleA on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 01:59:15 PM EST

thats right (none / 0)

who cares about rules!!!

Why even consider rules!!

Lets just say, whomeever Mark penn names will be the nominee.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:11:48 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ALL the rules matter... (none / 0)

...not just those convenient for one side or the other.

In fact, that's part of the problem that needs to be solved now.

And, it's a very difficult situation.

Arguing that one side's supporters will become more disaffected than another's is pure, unadulterated bullshit that's undermined by virtually ALL polling data that I've seen on this matter.

If anything, HRC support is slightly more affected (adversely) by these polls than BHO's supporters!

But, at this point, it IS irrelevant.

We need a consensus/compromise candidate. Any effort to shove one or the other down the public's throatl be met with a McCain victory in November.

This is ALL supported by virtually ALL polling on this matter. Like it or not.

Right now, if this process doesn't get decided with the results being a consensus candidate--other than Clinton or Obama--we lose the general election. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

I hate this reality, but it's the damn truth.

The best thing both candidates and the Party, in general, can do is give this more time.

To do ANYTHING else is tantamount to throwing the election. Period.


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:42:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

If the elected delegates from FL and MI are seated as elected in the existing primaries, the nomination is illegitimate to the extent that those delegates influence the voting.

Neither election was in any was fair or democratic. Turnout in both states was highly skewed in favor of one candidate. Seating Michigan as it stands disenfranchises 45% of the electorate; seating Florida as it stands largely disenfranchises AA's and younger people.

There can be no legitimacy with the existing delegations seated without applying penalties and corrections in such a way as to minimize the damage of the disenfranchisement of those elections.


by Texas Gray Wolf on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:52:26 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

So, you favor a revote, right? Urge Obama to work for that in both states. Then we will have delegates with no taint.


by DaleA on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:12:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

There's no "winner" or "loser" (2.00 / 1)

The concept that BHO has this "wrapped up" is pure, unadulterated b.s. It's a myth. Period.


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:07:52 PM EST

well the SDs do not seem to flocking (none / 0)

to her.

But the diary is not about this. Read it first.


-- be excellent to each other
by kindthoughts on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:12:38 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Stop insulting me, personally... (none / 0)

I've read the diary. Twice. My comments stand. It's a post of comments which are partisan in nature. It has little bearing--like most of the bloviating going on during this lull between primaries at the moment--on reality.

Any "reality" that isn't cognizant of the true fact that if a "choice" is made, at this juncture--between the party's two frontrunners for the nomination, then--the Party's fucked come November.

Any "reality" that isn't cognizant of the true fact that both Clinton and Obama supporters will be affected to the point of--if a choice is made now--it becomes tantamount to throwing the election in November.

The polls all bear this out. One side doesn't become "less disaffected" than another, at this moment, anyway. To argue that point is to ignore reality. QUANTITATIVE reality!

The bottom line: If we don't wait and let the nominating process take its course, according to the rules--if we don't give this time--we're fucked come November.

The only sane/other alternative to this issue at this moment--if we really want to win in November--is to choose a consensus/compromise candidate, sometime between now and the convention.

If folks' primary objective is not a Democratic win in November--and many supporters on both sides have voiced this sentiment too--personally, IMHO, I have no use for them. They can go to hell.

If you're attitude is: "it's my way or the highway", get the fuck out of my way.

Quantitative polling data dictates this reality to me, and to many other pragmatic Dems right now, too.

Is that clarity enough for you?

Stop the fucking partisan bloviating! Either wait it out; choose a consensus candidate; or, shut the fuck up. Anything else is not in the best interests of the Democratic Party.

Can you hear me now?


by bobswern on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:11:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1.00 / 3)

Zing!!!! Go to hell Markos you scum bag,Their is not one single person in the world that has caused the hate between the campaigns more than you.Maybe you would like to tell us how Hillary darkened Obamas skin again you piece of shit race baiter.If he is delusional enough to think that Clinton voters are going to go to Obama because of mystical fairness he is a moron.Try the fairness she has received from the press compared to Obama.Catholics,latinos,Asians,Jews and older Americans are not going to vote for Obama no matter what Kos thinks period.


I've fallen and I can get up
by grab1 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:30:57 PM EST

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

You are the one sounding just like a racist.


by munodi on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 03:39:09 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (1.00 / 1)

Gawd I left Kos and deleted him from my favorites so I wouldn't have to read his bile ever again.Take this crap down before he tells us how Hillary darkened Saint Obamas skin again.Your a race baiter like your candidate Markos,go to hell.


I've fallen and I can get up
by grab1 on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 02:52:13 PM EST

Re: ZING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (none / 0)

"But if Obama wins the pledged delegate count and still does not gain the nomination, his supporters (most especially but certainly not limited to African-Americans) will be deeply, deeply disillusioned with the process. Even if Clinton were to catch up in the popular vote (a near pipe-dream, but nonetheless) it would offer some measure of mitigation, but not nearly enough to avoid a gross sense of injustice."

He will not win 2,024 - he may have the most delegates but not enough for the nomination.

If the next 10 or so primaries favor Clinton and she has the MO going into the GE and her poll numbers come up.

If the exit polls show that she has white men and lations and that obama only has AA's and young people.....

Then the DNC will chose her....one way they can do this -legally- is to COUNT FL/MI - then she'll have the pledged delegate vote AND the popular vote.....


by nikkid on Tue Mar 25, 2008 at 09:13:34 PM EST


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